Episode 188: Abusive Attitudes and Behaviors with Lindsay Poelman

You are listening to the Overcome Pornography for Good podcast episode 188, Abusive Attitudes and Behaviors with Lindsay Poelman.

Welcome to the Overcome Pornography For Good podcast where we take a research-based, trauma informed and results focused approach to quitting porn. This approach has been revolutionary and changed thousands and thousands of lives. I’m your host, Sara Brewer. 

Sara: All right everyone, welcome to today’s podcast episode. Today we are meeting again with Lindsay Poelman, who I just love. Lindsay, do you want to say hey? 

Lindsay: Hi everyone. 

Sara: So Lindsay and I, today we’re going to be talking about abusive behaviors and attitude, emotional abuse, worthiness, boundaries, a bunch of these topics, some things I really wanted to talk about for a while. And Lindsay is just – Can I call you an expert? Like an expert on this. And just she teaches it in her certification program, she’s just a great person to talk with about all of this, and I love having these conversations with her. 

So, if you don’t know Lindsay yet, let me introduce you. She does certifications for coaches, trauma-informed certifications, advanced certifications, and then she also has started doing certifications for brand new people who want to be coaches. And then what else, Lindsay? How else do you want to introduce yourself? 

Lindsay: Yeah, I started out doing a lot of betrayal trauma coaching for women whose husbands looked at porn. And this is where I got more training in this so that I could really, really support women in understanding some of these sneaky ways where they might be on the receiving end of emotional abuse. 

But also, my heart is like, you know, because I’ve been coaching in your program for as long as I have, you know, the guest coaching here and there I’ve been able to coach men. We want to make sure that men have an understanding of what it is as well, so that they can set appropriate boundaries in their marriage too, and not have something kind of hanging over their heads. Like, well, you looked at porn, so everything is your fault for life, right? 

Because the men that I’ve worked with in your program, so many of them, the ones that come for coaching are so, just so sincere and so good. We want to make sure that they know that it’s okay to set boundaries too. 

Sara: Yeah. Yeah, so Lindsay, she does, she comes and guest coaches in the program once a month specifically for spouses, but I think you’ve also coached men as they’ve come in a lot too. So as I mentioned before, Lindsay does certifications as well, and she is the person that I recommend if you want to become a coach or start doing some coaching, I recommend that people go to her. 

I got my certification at The Life Coach School, which I don’t recommend anymore, but Lindsay has an amazing program and she works really well with the trauma aspect. She also does a lot of work kind of in that space of connecting therapists and coaches. And maybe we’ll talk more about that, that’s a whole other podcast episode. But I did recently hire someone who went through Lindsay’s program, Hunter. If any of you know Hunter who’s in the program and he’s just awesome. 

And anyway, so I do get emails occasionally that say, “What if I want to do what you want to do? How do I do it?” So Lindsay is a great resource. If you want to look into that a little bit more. 

Lindsay: So nice of you to say. It’s such, I just love the people that come through because so many of them are so focused on helping others. And you have people like Hunter who want to make a difference, right? And want to help people, you know, just like your other coaches who want to help people work through what they’re working through more efficiently and set up a really loving environment to, I don’t want to say to hack healing, because that to me is a misnomer, but to create an environment that’s incredibly conducive to healing, that’s huge. And that’s something that I see a lot of your coaches being very mindful of, which is amazing. 

Sara: Yeah. I’ve had all of my coaches go through Lindsay’s program, every single one. And so, you know, because the reality is, coaching is an unregulated industry and if you’re not careful you can hire someone who can do a lot of damage. It’s the same with therapists. You can find a coach or a therapist who maybe isn’t quite where they need to be and can maybe be subtly gaslighting you or some of these other things. 

So anyways, let’s hop into our actual topic for today though. We’re going to deep dive into abusive behaviors, boundaries, and the emotional wounds that often contribute to these dynamics. So let’s start with talking about emotional abuse. Lindsay, do you want to tell us what emotional abuse is? 

Lindsay: Yeah, of course. So emotional abuse is a way to control another person by using emotions to criticize, embarrass, shame, blame, or otherwise manipulate. It’s a consistent pattern that wears down a person’s self-esteem and mental health over time. It’s to me, I mean, I think it’s interesting, it’s kind of a sneakier type of abuse. 

And I think that’s why so many of us don’t see it because a lot of us have grown up in a society where I would say, you know, if you’ve grown up in a high demand religious culture, you’ve potentially been exposed to and internalized more than you might know. Not everybody, but some have, and so sometimes it’s kind of harder to pick up on red flags when red flags are the norm, but. 

Sara: Yeah. It seems like emotional abuse is sometimes tolerated in society. 

Lindsay: Yeah, it’s a pretty, you know, I think the reason I wanted to dial into this with the women that I used to coach so much is because it’s kind of, it’s very unseen. With physical abuse, it’s so clear. He hit me, that’s wrong. But chronic discounting of someone’s human experience is harder to see, yet I know people who have come through all different types of abuse and pretty nasty relationships where they will say, oh, the emotional abuse was by far the worst part, the worst part. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Lindsay: Because it’s sneaky and it’s a mind F and it’s confusing. And then when you have people telling you to forgive and move on or move through it, or at least he had a lot of money, or at least this, at least that. When your human experience is being chronically discounted, that’s not a way to live. 

And so I think another thing, just to make it really clear right now too, is for people listening, just because someone exhibits abusive behavior, it doesn’t mean we need to label them. I think a lot of people exhibit emotionally abusive behavior. They don’t necessarily know they do, okay? 

And so it doesn’t mean someone is suddenly a bad guy if you’re starting to see this. It’s more, oh, let’s bring some awareness and consciousness to this and then see what shifts or transpires from there as we set boundaries as a form of deepening intimacy. 

Sara: Yeah, really good, which we’ll talk more about when we get into the abusive attitudes versus behaviors section. 

Lindsay: Yeah. 

Sara: But yeah, I love that little caveat up front. So can you tell us, let’s give some examples of emotional abuse. 

Lindsay: Yeah, of course. I mean, there’s so many because it’s like anything that’s happening consistently and chronically enough that devaluing or discounting your human experience could be construed as that. 

And I was telling Sara before we started recording, eye rolling. And the reason I brought it up is because that’s something that I have done in my marriage, not consistently or chronically. But a lot of this stuff, a one-off event is different than chronic. So it’s something you want to just be mindful of too. 

It was like we’re not here to like, you know, deeply judge ourselves as well, but you know, lectures. So if someone’s like belaboring your errors with long monologues to make it clear they think you’re beneath them. Once they know something annoys you, pushing your buttons and bringing something up every chance they get. Sarcasm, some of you might not like to hear that one, but a dig in disguise. And then if you bring something up, they’re like, oh, you’re so sensitive. Like I was just teasing, stop taking everything so seriously. 

Dismissiveness, that’s a huge one, right? If you try to share something that’s really important to you, and then it’s just kind of dismissed with, again, eye rolling, smirking, head shaking, that’s not how it is. That’s not what my experience is. Or sighing, guilt, telling you you have no sense of humor, blame. Shutting down communication, that’s one that I see a lot in more high demand religions. 

Dehumanizing you, right? They look away when you’re talking or stare at something else when they speak to you. Tuning you out, interrupting or disputing your feelings. 

Sara: Yeah. And so, because I can hear some people, you know, they hear this list and they’re like, well, then aren’t we all emotional abusers? Because we have all, I mean, I’m assuming, I don’t know one person who hasn’t sometime or another eye rolled or been sarcastic or a bit back a little bit. 

So the difference here, and we’ll talk about this, let’s talk about it now. But like there’s behaviors and attitudes. And I also want to, again, kind of point out what you were saying earlier, it’s this chronic nature. Chronic, just over and over and over and over and ongoing. It's just like, instead of what’s really behind it and when you get to it is love and connection and intimacy, what’s behind it is, ooh, I don’t know, maliciousness. 

Lindsay: Yeah, and the other thing too, I mean, when we’re looking, hey, what’s behind this? Like you could look at, you know, if I were a woman and someone said, tuning you out, I could look at that and be like, oh, I’ve done that. But have I done that from a place of entitlement or has it also been a trauma response, right? 

When you know you can’t win in a conversation and you just kind of shut down and fawn a little bit to make the conversation end, right? That’s very different than being, and you know, just tuning someone out, if that makes sense, right? 

Or dissociating. So again, this is us understanding one angle of what could, or an angle or a set of angles that could be behind the behavior, but there are a lot of other things that it could be as well. 

Sara: Yeah. Okay. So let’s dive into that behavior versus attitude even a little bit more. So behavior is going to be a lot of these things that you mentioned. And let’s think specifically too, because one thing I was telling Lindsay why I want to do this episode is I sometimes get scared that people are using my content to justify abusive behaviors or attitudes. 

And so specifically let’s talk about what some abusive behaviors might look like for men, for viewing porn maybe in their relationship. What might some of those examples be? 

Lindsay: I mean, it could be a lot of things. I’m trying to think. 

Sara: I mean, so saying like, here’s one that comes to mind too, would be like, well, I do it because you don’t have enough sex with me. 

Lindsay: Oh my gosh, yeah. That’s such, I mean, I want to swear right now, but I won’t, I don’t know if you swear on your podcast, so I won’t swear. 

Sara: Sometimes, we do sometimes. 

Lindsay: Okay. But yeah, like that is so manipulative, right, for so many different reasons. Because again, that’s someone, to me there’s an, first of all, there’s an attitude of entitlement there. Right? And unfortunately, a lot of men have been taught and internalized the lie that porn and sex are related and that you have to have sex or go find it somewhere else. And that’s just not true. That’s just not true. 

Sara: We hear that a lot. We hear that a lot. 

Lindsay: Yeah. And for those of you who are newer to Sara’s podcast, you have an amazing resource page that has all of this, a lot of really cool research, like recent unbiased research to support some of this stuff. But yeah, not only is there like that attitude of entitlement, but there’s manipulation there too. 

Sara: The attitude behind it is like, you owe me this. I’m entitled. Yeah. 

Lindsay: Yeah, like you gave yourself to me, this is part of the deal, blah, blah, blah. How many times have I heard that that’s just kind of how it is and that’s how it’s supposed to be in marriages, when that’s not the case, right? We’re all meant to have our own bodily autonomy. And physical intimacy comes, for a lot of women it comes when they feel safe. So if you’re using an attitude of entitlement to get what you want, while not doing what you can to, again, create a relationship where there’s safety there, then yeah, it might make sense that your wife withdraws. 

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. 

Lindsay: Yeah. I mean, I think men, it seems like generally sometimes men don’t realize the impact that their porn use has on their partners. And it’s an interesting space, right? Because not only are we working with – It’s just interesting because if you find a couple where they both want to heal sometimes, you know, from Sara’s end, because she’s marketing generally, and correct me of course, generally you’re marketing to men who want to stop using porn. 

And when you want, for men who want to stop using porn, like we don’t need shame. Like we can, we need to take, to me personally, taking shame and judgment out of the picture is pretty essential to create sustainable results and healing. 

And so when we, as coaches, try to remove the shame through the way that we teach about what porn is and things like that, so that they aren’t kicking their own butts and hating on themselves to stop, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t people who may use, like what you were said you were worried about, use your words about that to manipulate and tell their partner, well, there’s nothing wrong with porn. Porn is neutral. Porn is this, right? 

So it’s very different than you taking the information and self-internalizing, versus you taking it and weaponizing it and telling their wives that they shouldn’t have a problem with it, when your wife gets to decide. Like we get to decide what we want or don’t want in our marriage and we can make requests. It doesn’t mean our husbands are forced to honor them, but we get to decide what affects our body. And to me personally, doing your own work can help you get more clear on that so that your requests can come through in a way that’s maybe more effective. 

So for me personally, I did have to do a lot of work around my husband’s past porn use, but what I’d noticed when I coached a lot of women through betrayal trauma is after they worked through that, what they were really wanting was more like different types of intimacy in their marriage. Like, yes, they wanted the porn to stop, but what was really lacking was the emotional, intellectual, spiritual intimacy that they were wanting. 

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, and so really just looking behind, what are the words that we’re saying? What are we saying to our spouse? And is it coming from a place of control, manipulation, isolation, trying to belittle them, even just trying to control how they feel about your porn use? 

Lindsay: Yeah, like trivializing. 

Sara: Yeah, trivializing, which can almost sometimes maybe be a trauma response. Do you think? 

Lindsay: From the men’s side or the women’s side? 

Sara: From the men’s side, yeah. 

Lindsay: Yeah, like it could be like a fight response. Just trying to get, like, shut someone down. So kind of like when I think of how someone who’s kind of entitled, who feels, you know, is kind of taking on more of that attitude of entitlement and they’re kind of like trying to get their, like, shut down the conversation or get their wife to agree. It could be a fight response. And even if it is, you’re still responsible for your behavior. 

So that’s really important to clarify for all parties involved, is trauma response or not, we’re always responsible and accountable for our behavior. 

Sara: Yes. Yeah, really good. And then from like, and I say men and women and really it’s partners, it could be either. 

Lindsay: Yeah. 

Sara: But like, let’s say just the common example. So from the wife’s perspective, what might be some abusive behaviors or attitudes from their end? 

Lindsay: Yeah, such a good question. And I say this with like the most, with so much love and compassion and sensitivity for, you know, if it’s generally the woman. And just so everyone here knows I have been, you know, I am my own avatar in the sense that my partner and I used to be in a relationship where he had lied to me about porn use and then he came clean. But it kind of felt like everything was good until that happened. 

So when I’m in a pretty disempowered space or when I was in a disempowered space, it did feel very much like it all went back to him freaking lying to me. Right? And so I think if your partner is communicative and comes clean, communicative and trustworthy and clean, even if they have lied and they are being actively communicative and trustworthy and transparent as it makes sense, which we could get into later if you want me to expound on that. 

And we’re just kind of still letting all of the marriage problems and every problem go back to that. Like if we haven’t gotten over that while they are demonstrating trustworthiness, I think it may take time for us to decide that our partner is trustworthy again.  And that’s okay, right? We want to honor our nervous systems as women. And if we’re not doing our own healing work to work through the wounds that come up and we’re just kind of like reacting and blaming them for every problem, like to me over time, that might not be fair. 

Again, I just say it with so much love because I have probably done that. Like I probably did do that or blame my husband for certain things for a little while. But then I got to my own dark night of the soul moment where I just decided, I have to figure out me. Whether he figures out his stuff or not, I have to figure me out. But that’s when I started feeling so empowered, Sara, so empowered, getting more help, getting into coaching. I’d already been doing therapy, which was incredibly helpful in a lot of different ways as far as emotional processing. 

But as far as really like taking the reins of my life, the coaching was what helped clear a lot of clouds to help me see with more clarity where to set boundaries, where to take ownership from my behavior. And by behavior, I’m talking about current day, right? And kind of going from there and setting boundaries. So, yeah. 

Sara: Yeah, I love it. Thank you. And some of those things to maybe look out for too is, again, are we trying to control, manipulate, belittle? And that can very easily come from the wife's side as well. 

Lindsay: Yeah. And I think it just sucks for like, and I can see both sides, of course. I don’t want to say I can see everybody’s sides, but when I just think of my experience and my partner it’s like, you know, my partner and I grew up in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. And the way men are taught to shame and fear themselves around porn use is so damaging. It’s so damaging. And then you go to like – 

Sara: And it’s imbued into everything, like even ever since you’re like 12 or younger. 

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. It’s just, it’s so damaging and it can be traumatizing for men. And I think a lot of men are traumatized while trying to freaking heal. And so if we, you know, kind of take on some of what the church teaches, or as women we kind of use some of that stuff, the fear and the shame to get them to change, I think it can be helpful for us to kind of look inward and ask, where is that coming from? Is that coming from fear, anger, judgment, different things like that, because that’s not what they need. 

But also at the same time, we’re not responsible for their healing as well. Like they’re responsible for themselves, but also based on what we’ve internalized by what we’ve heard men be told and taught about pornography, are we holding some totem over their head, right? Well, everything’s a problem because of you. And it’s just one of those unfortunate ways that we, men and women internalize some of these teachings that are based on a lot of fear and shame. 

So it’s kind of an unfortunate side effect where it makes sense that women might hold that over them because that’s been so focused on for men as well, if that makes sense. 

Sara: Yeah, it’s like it’s okay to hold it over them because what else do you do or how else do you make changes or how else do you make yourself clear? But there’s a way to be really clear in you and yourself and what you want and your worth, all of that, without maybe some of the attitudes behind it. Maybe some of those maybe more abusive attitudes might be like, actually, I don’t know. I’m trying to think. 

Lindsay: Well, one thing that comes to my mind too is like, well, acting superior. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Lindsay: Right? Like I’m better than you because I don’t. Or being controlling, trying to control. Now, hyper-vigilance can be a trauma response. So we want to find that balance. And we have, as women, can we be compassionate for our hyper-vigilance side that is doing whatever we can to scramble and feel some sense of control? But also recognize that trying to control our partner may not be the easiest thing. And then again, our side, abuse, blaming, right? A bunch of things like that. 

Now, what I will say is, as far as withdrawing sex, I have heard men think that that’s like a form of manipulation, emotional abuse, things like that. I feel like generally that is more a woman trying to find a sense of safety. So to me, I just don’t think that should ever be, I mean, generally most of the time that something that a man should throw on the table, like, well, she’s withholding sex. 

Sara: Yeah, I can see how maybe behind that, if like I’m withholding it to punish you, like maybe some of that, like, like little iffy, but. 

Lindsay: But behind that, she doesn’t feel safe. 

Sara: Yeah. And she always gets to choose. Yeah. She always gets, and like a no can always be a no. 

Lindsay: Yeah. No explanation needed either. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Lindsay: I think the big thing is just making sure that like we, you know, when you really dial back, a lot of this is about men learning how to feel safe and kind of like tap into their sense of safety independently, and women doing the same so that they can come together interdependently. 

Sara: Yeah. 

Lindsay: So as you’re both healing, you’re both changing the dance of your, you know, I would say like you’re a little marital triangle. So there’s going to be some shuffling and some tripping in a dance, of course, if both of you are learning new steps. But ultimately it’s like, even if there’s some trips and fumbles, where are things trending, right? 

Like my husband set boundaries with me when I would want to react. This was before I found coaching and everyone around me was like, just on my side, like team Lindsay, because he looks at porn, right? So it felt like, yeah, like this makes sense. And so but I do remember him setting boundaries with me, in a really healthy way to be completely honest. And in the moment it bugged the crap out of me, I was so freaking annoyed. 

Sara: Did you say it bugged the crap out of you? 

Lindsay: Oh yeah. Like when he would set a boundary, like if you keep this, I’m going to like leave the room and he would do it. It’d be so annoying. But then when I would sit and think about it, I’m like, I respect that. Like, sure, I kind of wish it could be this way, but I respect his autonomy as well. You know? 

Sara: Yeah. If you need extra help with that, I did an episode on boundaries. It’s like boundaries with spouses and with religious leaders. So you can go listen to a little bit more in depth there. 

Lindsay: Yeah. That’d be a good one with religious leaders too, that’s important. 

Sara: Yeah. Yeah, I’ve talked about that quite a bit because often with religious leaders there’s like that power dynamic there where, well, they are my spiritual authority almost, you know? And so I do have to listen to what they say and I need to be humble and listen. 

Lindsay: Or tell all. I need to be humble and tell all. 

Sara: Yeah, or tell all. Yeah.  

Lindsay: And that’s not always the case. 

Sara: No. Yeah, you have to listen to yourself and decide. 

Lindsay: Yeah. 

Sara: Sometimes, you know, you can use the religious leaders and they can be really helpful and awesome. And other times they’re not going to be, they’re going to be kind of, you know, not understand all of these things. 

So let’s dive into worthiness wounds because we’ve done a couple of podcast episodes on this, but I do want to talk about this with you a little bit. We’ll talk about worthiness wounds, what they are and how they influence behavior. And then, yeah, go from there. 

So, okay. I’m going to use some of the examples from this outline that Lindsay put together for us. But so worthiness wounds, we’ve talked about, they're just these deep seated beliefs that you’re not good enough, you’re not deserving of love, you’re not inherently valuable. So we’ve talked about that in the podcast a lot. Just like you are inherently worthy, like worthy of love and worthy of all of those things. And so it’s this wound where you don’t feel that. 

And these wounds often will stem from childhood or societal conditioning, maybe trauma. Some examples of this would be maybe a man who grew up feeling that he could never meet his father’s expectations and he might carry a worthiness wound that manifests in a lot of insecurity in his relationships. 

Or maybe a woman who’s constantly criticized for her appearance might develop worthiness wounds around her body, affecting self-esteem and relationships. 

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah, such good stuff. So where do you want to go with that? 

Sara: I think where I want to go with that is how that really does play into some of these abusive behaviors and attitudes, and that healing that is what heals a lot of those tendencies. 

Lindsay: Okay. Yeah, that sounds good. And then also it can also be what makes it harder for us to set boundaries too. And so the more that we dial into that, I am worthy, I deserve to be respected, I deserve to be loved, it can help us set boundaries as needed as well. 

And so the worthiness wounds, it can be a reason why men on the receiving end of emotional abuse aren’t seeing that. You know, like, yeah, I am a loser because that’s what they freaking internalized from since age 12, right? 

Sara: Yeah. Okay. So Lindsay, do you want to talk about worthiness wounds and abusive dynamics in a religious context? Because I think that’ll apply to a lot of my listeners who are working through some of this. And then we’ll talk more about boundaries and we’ll talk more about healing. 

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think, unfortunately in a lot of religions, and we all internalize things differently, but it just seems like generally with a lot of men who are looking at porn who don’t want to, they’ve internalized a lot of – Oh, I want to swear again, because it’s just so crappy. Like crappy and unfortunate and a total mind F the way that people have been taught that their worthiness is based on behavior, when your worth just exists for who you are. Like your worth, your amazingness, like you deserve to be celebrated for existing as a freaking human. 

And so in religious constructs where we layer on all of this, like you have to be this or this or this or this and this and this be worthy. It’s just so much, it’s too much. And especially when this stuff starts getting layered on from age 12, like my heart just breaks for boys who didn’t get to just experience boyhood and adolescence in a more carefree way because of some of this stuff that was kind of pummeled into their systems from such a young age. 

And a huge problem with this too, is then it’s like, first of all, where your focus goes, energy flows. And so if you are afraid of looking at porn and that’s all you’re thinking about, it’s more likely that you might look at porn, right? Even if you’re saying no porn, no porn, what your unconscious hears is porn, porn, porn. And so it makes sense based on how we’re taught. 

And then if a church focuses so much on what not to do, you know, if you look at any of Sara's talking around like shame spirals and things like that, you’ll see where that kind of comes from. And the huge problem with this too, is if men have internalized that their worth is dependent on their behavior, then when they don't line up with what a religion might say, then they don’t think they’re worthy. 

And then if they don’t think they’re worthy, then they might not pick up on any emotional abuse that they’re on the receiving end of, whether that’s in religious context with respect to like a church leader or with their partner, because they’re just like, well, yeah, I deserve to be kicked around like a dog because I just deserve this. And that’s not the case. It’s just not the case. It’s so disempowering and that’s not what the world needs. And it’s not what men are, like it’s not what you deserve. You deserve to be celebrated for existing. 

But also you don’t, you’re not entitled to being, you know, to that all coming from your partner, right? That can come from within. And while your partner is working out her stuff, like you can find safe people, safe sponsors. And Sara’s group, like her community piece where you can receive the validation and support that you need and deserve because connection is a big part of healing from trauma as well. 

Sara: Yeah. One of the lies that the worthiness wound stuff teaches us too, is that you have to be at that low place in order to be good and to do good things. And sometimes it’s disguised in like the term humility. that really like when you’re down with the worthiness wounds, it’s just that you’re being humble and good job because that’s how you’re going to make a lot of changes and do a lot of good. 

But it’s not true. It’s not, that’s not how it works. And we can see that really clearly when we do models. For those of you who have listened to me for a while know what I mean by that. It’s like when we look at our thoughts, feelings, and our actions, and really just looking at the fruits, at the fruits of our lives, we just don’t get good fruits when we’re constantly being cut down with these worthiness wounds. Because I know when I’ve talked about this in the past some people get really up in arms and they’re like, but like, we’re not all worthy. We’re not. You have to be a good person to be worthy. 

Lindsay: Yeah. Yeah. And then there’s just like, well, what is your definition of worthy? And then for a lot of those people, it’s a definition that’s been decided by older white men who, it’s just that’s just the construct of what men have decided. And it’s not, to me that’s not true. Right? So you can check it and see what your body does. 

Like when I think of the definition of worthiness being, hey, you freaking deserve to be supported for existing. Like think about your child or a niece or nephew that is just so easy to look at and just explode with love for, you deserve that too. And to me, anything to the contrary, like it just, to me, it doesn’t vibe. 

Now, it’s interesting too, because a lot of that stuff is set up like we think we need the fear and the shame, you know, if the fear and the shame have gotten us to a certain level of life, like, yeah, it works as far as survival is going, but that’s not what the world needs. We need, you know, we’re kind of on this precipice of elevating to this new level of consciousness where it’s more about thriving and living and feeling alive in your life. 

And everybody’s absolutely deserving of that. And so one way that I’ll hack my brain really easily, or one way you could try hacking your brain easily is like if you have a hard time believing what Sara and I are saying about worth, then again, like she said, go look at the model and just work with your ego in that way. Like, okay, well, this is how I’ve thought about it. And do I have the results in my life that I want? Okay. 

And for me, if I do that, I like to live in – sometimes I have to logic my ego to get it, to take a step back. And sometimes I will be like, well, we’ve tried it this way. And this is the result that we have through contingent worthiness ideas or belief systems. It hasn’t worked. It hasn’t gotten me what I want. I don’t have the relationships I want. I don’t have the life that I want. I don’t have the career that I want. 

So we’ve tried it that way for X many years. What if we just try this other way? And allow yourself to channel some curiosity to play in this arena of feeling worthy because you exist. 

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. Really good. So these worthiness wounds and why I want to bring it up here is because I really believe that if there are deep worthiness wounds, you’re going to be more likely to exhibit abusive behaviors and attitudes. And that can be because you think that other people need to be as worthy, whatever that is in your mind, you need to control their worthiness. 

You know, we just don’t act good when we are not feeling good. We do not act good. If we don’t feel good in ourselves, sometimes we look for someone else to help us feel good. And sometimes there can be control and manipulation there. 

And so it’s really vital to continue doing this healing work in yourself if you find yourself prone to some of those behaviors or attitudes. 

Lindsay: Yeah. And I would say there may not be a correlation with how you treat others because of that, but it’s very possible that if you have worthiness wounds, you have been on the receiving end of abusive behaviors and attitudes as well. So I think it’s really important for, as far as abuse is concerned, people who abuse, who are abused, you know, if we just say emotional abuse, like generally – Well, actually let’s go to, if we move to the context of sexual abuse victims, statistically someone who has abused has been a victim of it. But also statistically victims of sexual abuse don’t go on to do it, if that makes sense. 

And so just because we’ve been on the receiving end of emotional abuse, it doesn’t mean we’re, I guess I would assume that we’re not more likely to do it, but there are people who may. Where like being conscious, like being conscious and intercepting what has been modeled to us is so huge and not using something to go from there. 

And so I would assume that someone who has an attitude of entitlement has internalized that from somewhere, but it doesn’t always mean – I think a lot of us have internalized a lot of crap, but we consciously choose to not promulgate it, right? We choose to break the chains. 

And I just think of everyone who’s probably listening to this podcast or in-service program, like you guys are the chain breakers, which is a pretty big deal. 

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, thank you. Can we talk about boundary setting for a minute? 

Lindsay: Yeah, of course. 

Sara: What tips do you have for us in boundary setting? 

Lindsay: Yeah. I think the big thing is just recognizing that maybe you’re on the receiving end of something that you are not loving and validating your own experience. Like I think knowing your worth, like understanding your worth and that you deserve to be respected, just general loving respect. Like if you think of like a friendship, right? 

So recognizing certain behaviors you’re on the receiving end of that you don’t love. And when you know your worth or you’re on the way to knowing your worth, just knowing it’s okay to make requests like, I don’t want to be treated this way, or I don’t want to be this, whatever it is this way. 

And so acknowledging, getting clear on what types of behaviors you don’t like that you’re on the receiving end of can be helpful so that you can then set boundaries from there. And again, this isn’t to manipulate. Boundaries are never set up or requested to manipulate someone else’s behavior. It’s more about your own nervous system capacity, which interestingly could be weaponized as well. But your own nervous system capacity and protecting your own emotional boundaries, right? 

Sara: Yeah. I’m just kind of giggling. Not giggling, but like, oh, like there is a lot of nuance for anything. It just, it really does depend on what’s behind a lot of the action here because, you know? 

Lindsay: Yeah. 

Sara: And I think that goes back to the abusive attitudes, right, versus behaviors, because you can use anything, you can use anything against another person. You can use therapy speak against another person. You can use trauma speak against another person. You can use all of it. 

Lindsay: Yeah, and that’s the thing is like people who are, who want to manipulate and have that major attitude of entitlement, they’re going to use whatever diction or jargon they have to get what they want. So that’s why it’s so important to know your body and be connected to your body so that even if they are using that, you can be checking in and be like, something’s not quite right. You know, you can kind of check in and have that knowing so that you don’t self gaslight on either end of the spectrum too, like whether you’re a woman in a relationship or the man. 

But it sucks. It’s an unfortunate externality of people who want to manipulate and who feel they’re entitled, that they would do that, but it just makes sense. And that’s why it’s so important to be connected to yourself and your knowing and all of this and to trust yourself. So that no matter what you’re being told, you can dial into what do I know? What do I know? 

I deserve to be an equal partner. It’s okay that this person hates my behavior or is pissed off, but does that get to hang over my head for the rest of my life? Right? And sometimes both partners need professional support to get clear on where those boundaries might lie or to dial into their knowing more deeply. 

Sara: Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. Thank you. Where that worthiness wound healing is really, really going to come into play, that rebuilding your self-worth. 

Lindsay: Oh yeah. My heart just hurts for both parties. I think you’re, I’m guessing your podcast is generally more men may be listening, but I know a lot of wives usually sometimes listen and then refer their husbands. But yeah, my heart just hurts for men too, who have been treated this way. Not even just by their partner, but like the stuff that has potentially been internalized by religious leaders over time. It’s damaging and it can create, there can be a lot of trauma from that. 

Sara: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, Lindsay, anything else you might want to add or share concerning abusive attitudes, behaviors, boundaries, worthiness wounds? 

Lindsay: Yeah. I mean, I think everybody here who’s listening, just educating yourself and acknowledging what is there or isn’t there, and making sure on both ends that we’re taking accountability and ownership of our behavior past and present. 

So you can take accountability and be responsible for past present behavior, even if you don’t like it and just acknowledge what is so that you can shift, right? So maybe you have been on that side of like entitlement and you’re kind of like coming at this, like, well, whoa, I have maybe expected too much of my wife or I have this. Or you might be on that other side of that. But taking accountability for your behavior with the information that you had in the moment, and then acknowledging what is so that you can in a nonjudgmental way, pivot towards where you want to go is huge. 

And then coming into, for those who want to stop looking at porn, like Sara’s program is so, so well-resourced. I highly, highly recommend it because she’s got trauma-informed coaches in there and it’s just awesome. But also when you can deepen that self-worth, it’ll help you see what boundaries are being crossed in different relationships and partnerships. So, there's that. 

And then I think you asked where people can find me? 

Sara: Yeah. And then tell us, yeah, where can people find you and learn more about you or work with you or whatever they want to do? 

Lindsay: Yeah, so as far as finding me, my website is lindsaypoelmancoaching.com. And I have, if you’re interested in becoming a certified coach, I have a certification starting next month. I’m so excited. My first cohort just went through and finished up earlier this summer and it was just a really, really incredible loving space for everybody to come as they are, be celebrated, get some serious shifting and traction on their stickiest relationships while getting an ivory tower, a very, like we’re getting the ivory tower experience as far as like understanding trauma and nervous system stuff too. But we have time, appropriate time set aside to self-apply and integrate, which is really, really impactful. So you can find me there on my website. 

And then I would just say, I do have a really, really inexpensive course for women whose husbands look at porn. So if you’re learning, if you just need a crash course survival guide to figure that out, you can find that on my website as well. And there are monthly community calls as well. 

Sara: Super cool. I love that. 

Lindsay: Yeah. 

Sara: Yeah, that’s great. Awesome. Thank you so, so much for being here. All right, everyone. We will talk to you next week. Bye-bye. 

Lindsay: Thank you. 

I want to invite you to come and listen to my free class, How To Overcome Pornography For Good Without Using Willpower. We talk about how to stop giving in to urges without pure willpower or relying on phone filters so that you can actually stop wanting pornography. 

We talk about how to stop giving up after a few weeks or months. And spoiler alert, the answer isn’t have more willpower. And then lastly, we talk about how to make a life without porn easily sustainable and permanent. 

If you’re trying to quit porn, this class is a game changer. So you can go and sign up at Sarabrewer.com/masterclass, and it is totally free.